Date: Tue, 02 Nov 93 10:16:45 EST Errors-To: Comp-privacy Error Handler From: Computer Privacy Digest Moderator To: Comp-privacy@PICA.ARMY.MIL Subject: Computer Privacy Digest V3#069 Computer Privacy Digest Tue, 02 Nov 93 Volume 3 : Issue: 069 Today's Topics: Moderator: Dennis G. Rears Re: California Driver License and SSN Re: California Driver License and SSN Re: California Driver License and SSN Re: isn't one's diary considered "private" ?? Re: Senator Proxmire CLI News from Spain - Nov. 1, '93 Privacy Advocate Electronic Checks Re: Driver Licence Info The Computer Privacy Digest is a forum for discussion on the effect of technology on privacy. The digest is moderated and gatewayed into the USENET newsgroup comp.society.privacy (Moderated). Submissions should be sent to comp-privacy@pica.army.mil and administrative requests to comp-privacy-request@pica.army.mil. Back issues are available via anonymous ftp on ftp.pica.army.mil [129.139.160.133]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 30 Oct 93 14:18:01 PDT From: Dave Gomberg Subject: Re: California Driver License and SSN The CA driver's license has been repeatedly held by the courts as a privledge, NOT A RIGHT. So to grant this privledge, the state could require you to do anything it wishes with an appropriate state purpose. Collecting child support from delinquent fathers is a legitimate state purpose (otherwise welfare must pick up the tab). So CA has a right to insist you identify yourself in a way that allows it to determine that you are not on any bad guys lists (which themselves are indexed by SSN). So you can give your SSN or you can refuse to avail yourself of the privledge of driving. Dave Dave Gomberg, role model for those who don't ask much in their fantasy lives. GOMBERG@UCSFVM Internet node UCSFVM.UCSF.EDU fax-> (415)731-7797 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 93 04:28:18 EST From: "Dennis G. Rears" Subject: Re: California Driver License and SSN Dave Gomberg writes: >A driver's license has been repeatedly held by the courts as a >privledge, NOT A RIGHT. So to grant this privledge, the state could >require you to do anything it wishes with an appropriate state purpose. >Collecting child support from delinquent fathers is a legitimate state >purpose (otherwise welfare must pick up the tab). So CA has a right to >insist you identify yourself in a way that allows it to determine that >you are not on any bad guys lists (which themselves are indexed by SSN). >So you can give your SSN or you can refuse to avail yourself of the >privledge of driving. It appears that you agree with this decision. Dave Niebuhr writes: >I do not like the fact that I have to give my SSN to every Tom, Dick >and Harry, but there has to be a way to catch the deadbeat dads and >this is one way to do it. >A deadbeat could get a job off the books and what is the only way to >catch them? An SSN on a driver's liscense. So catching a few deadbeat dads is worth requiring SSN on licenses? The purpose of driver licenses is to assure minimal compentency of the driver. Don't link it with everything else, it is yet another step to Big Brother. It's like New York bring revenue officers to New Jersey's reduced sales tax zones to take photographs of cars with New York plates on them so as to "remind" them they have to pay New York sales tax. Is it legal, yes? Is the collection of the tax worth the big brother aspect? I think not. Would the Daves agree that in order to get a driver's license the driver must present the following: o complete medical records o tax returns for the last 5 years o statement of family history/sexual orientation Why not? After all a license is privledge? The state has a right to demand this for granting a privledge. The state has a compelling need. dennis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 93 09:12:43 PST From: Mark Bell Subject: Re: California Driver License and SSN >As of January 1, 1993 the State of California requires a social security >number in order to renew a drivers license. The main reason stated is so they can trace deadbeat dads (that is in the enabling statute). The SSN is also required to buy a car from a dealer. At the Department of Motor Vehicles they have a sign that says you have to have an original SSN card to show them, not a paycheck stub or other secondary evidence. It turns out however that they will accept a document from the nearby SSA office that attests to your social security number. This document is handwritten on a Xeroxed form with an SSA rubber stamp for authenticity. I read the statutes and found no exceptions. However, when I bought a car the dealer told me that she had had to go through some sort of procedure to sell a car to a foreign national who had no SSN. I recall that she got a letter from his embassy or something like that. One last note on California DMV. They require a thumbprint for the driver license. Before about 1980 it was optional and I had declined. It later emerged in news reports that the names of everybody who had declined had been supplied to, I believe, the FBI. That was in the late 60's so there was some paranoia about. The thumbprint system now in use has each applicant place his/her thumb on an electronic screen which produces an EXCELLENT image of the thumb on the clerk's monitor. If you push too hard or otherwise mess it up she can see that the image is a poor one and ask you to adjust your thumb. The system is inkless and the thumbprint and photo are stored digitally. Mark Bell Applications Engineer, IDE bell@ide.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1993 00:43:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Tansin A. Darcos & Company" <0005066432@mcimail.com> Subject: Re: isn't one's diary considered "private" ?? From: Paul Robinson Organization: Tansin A. Darcos & Company, Silver Spring, MD USA ----- Bernie Cosell , writes: > In article , > "Tansin A. Darcos & Company" writes: > > } What it apparently means is that if you have written records, > } you can be required to present them; you are under no > } requirement to explain what they mean. So the answer is to > } encrypt them and give those who want them the printed listing > } of the encrypted file and stand on one's 5th Amendment right > } not to give out the key. This is what the file looks like on > } the computer; this is a verbatim printout of the file, which > } is garbage. > > Nice try but I suspect it won't fly. What I think it probably > WILL do is land you in jail for contempt of court, although I > don't think this has actually be tested yet. I don't think so. If your records were in written down using a code or cypher and you were subpoenaed, the court can order you jailed for not producing the written records, but if you did produce records, encrypted or encoded, and then invoked the right not to incriminate oneself in releasing the code, I don't know if there has ever been case law requiring you to speak the code. To do _that_ would essentially eviscerate the 5th Amendment. Secondary to that is that if you are found in contempt for invoking a right under the constitution, an Appeals court will often stay the contempt citation to allow the issue to be examined, especially in the case of a reporter. What strikes me as odd is why reporters don't do something like this: write something on the material which is incriminating ("I ran a red light on April 14 at 2:31 pm") and encode everything in their notes. Then, invoke the *5th* amendment - not the first - to refuse to decode the information. (Even if it is only information of running a red light, where traffic offenses are not administrative matters (which is only the District of Columbia; in all other places traffic offenses are criminal acts) the information about a 'crime' entitles one not to incriminate oneself.) It would be interesting to see whether one can be compelled to state the decoding key of a piece of material which could, based on the information which was compelled to be released by them, then be used to incriminate the person; no American court has ever done such a thing that I know of. --- Note: All mail is read/responded every day. If a message is sent to this account, and you expect a reply, if one is not received within 24 hours, resend your message; some systems do not send mail to MCI Mail correctly. Paul Robinson - TDARCOS@MCIMAIL.COM Voted "Largest Polluter of the (IETF) list" by Randy Bush ----- The following Automatic Fortune Cookie was selected only for this message: Lewis's Law of Travel: The first piece of luggage out of the chute doesn't belong to anyone, ever. ------------------------------ From: "Prof. L. P. Levine" Subject: Re: Senator Proxmire Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 11:18:55 -0600 (CST) Phones: (414) 229-5170 office; 962-4719 home; 229-6958 fax J. Philip Miller said: > >[...] >side is entitled to examine the document. The legal proceedings in the case >of Sen. Proxmeyer relates to how much of the diary should be entered, not as >to whether the diary can be subpoenaed or not. > Senator Proxmire from Wisconsin, now retired, was the Senator who gave the Golden Fleece awards. No scandal was noted for him. Senator Packwood from Oregon is the man who... + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Leonard P. Levine e-mail levine@cs.uwm.edu | | Professor, Computer Science Office (414) 229-5170 | | University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Home (414) 962-4719 | | Milwaukee, WI 53201 U.S.A. FAX (414) 229-6958 | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + ------------------------------ Organization: ATI (Asociacion de Tecnicos de Informatica) From: Rafael Fernandez Calvo Date: Mon, 1 Nov 93 13:42:27 -0100 Subject: CLI News from Spain - Nov. 1, '93 Please, post at your fora the news below. Thanks in advance, --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rafael Fernandez-Calvo | rfcalvo@guest2.atimdr.es Member of the Presidential Board of | CLI (Comision de Libertades e Informatica) | (34+1) 402 9391 CLI Phone (Commission for Liberties and Informatics)| (34+1) 309 3685 CLI Fax Padilla 66, 3 dcha., E28006 Madrid Espana | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- CCCCC LL II CC LL II CC LL II -- N E W S FROM S P A I N --- Nov. 1, 1993 CCCCC LLLLLL II COMMISSION for LIBERTIES and INFORMATICS (*) DIRECTOR OF DATA PROTECTION AGENCY APPOINTED BY THE SPANISH GOVERNMENT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Government of Spain has appointed the first Director of the recently created Data Protection Agency, according to the Data Protection Law in force since January. Juan-Jose Martin-Casallo, a longtime Prosecutor, is his name. Although he has no special background in the computers, freedom and privacy area, his record in the field of defense of civil liberties is outstanding. In his new post he will watch over the implementation of the Data Protection Law along with the Consultative Council of the Data Protection Agency, a body consisting of nine people representing different entities (Congress, Senate, Central Administration, Regional Governments, Municipalities, Council of Consumers, Royal Academy of History, Council of Universities and Chambers of Commerce). Two of the members of the Consultative Council belong to CLI (Ms. Elena Gomez-Pozuelo and Mr. Adolfo Varela, representing the Spanish Association of Direct Marketing Companies and United Consumers of Spain, respectively). CLI, which has been largely consulted by the new Minister of Justice during the process of creation of the new body, has personally expressed Mr. Martin-Casallo his willingness to cooperate with the new Agency in order to improve the chaotic situation existing today in Spain with regard to the use of computerized personal data by both Government bodies and private companies. * SOME WORDS ABOUT CLI The --Commission for Liberties and Informatics, CLI-- is an independent and pluralistic organization that was officially constituted in April '91. Its mission is to "promote the development and protection of citizens' rights, specially privacy, against misuse of Information Technologies". As of November '93, CLI is composed by nine organizations, with a joint membership of about 3,000,000 people. They cover a very wide spectrum of social interest groups: associations of computer professionals, judges, civil rights leagues, trade unions, consumers groups, direct marketing industry, etc. CLI is confederated with similar bodies created in some other Spanish Regions such as Valencia, Basque Country and Catalonia, and has fluid working relationships with many public and private Data Protection bodies and entities all over the world, including France's CNIL, USA's CPSR and Privacy International. CLI has its headquarters in: Padilla 66, 3 dcha. E-28006 Madrid, Spain Phone: (34-1) 402 9391 Fax: (34-1) 309 3685 E-mail: rfcalvo@guest2.atimdr.es ------------------------------ From: "Prof. L. P. Levine" Subject: Privacy Advocate Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:56:25 -0600 (CST) Phones: (414) 229-5170 office; 962-4719 home; 229-6958 fax The state of Wisconsin recently appointed a Privacy Advocate. Carol M. Doeppers, the wife of a UW Geology Professor begins in this new post 12/1/93 according to an article by Steven Walters in the October 27th Milwaukee Sentinel. The job pays $33,000/year and should be compared to $100,000/year paid to the state person who tracks Railroad legislation. Even with this interesting disparity Wisconsin is the first state in the union to have such an advocate. Canada has had one for some time. Doeppers is not sure just what the job entails, according to the Sentinel, but intends to be "... keenly concerned" with "the pretty rampant collection of identifiable information, much of which is not relevant." I am sure there will be more news to come on this. + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Leonard P. Levine e-mail levine@cs.uwm.edu | | Professor, Computer Science Office (414) 229-5170 | | University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Home (414) 962-4719 | | Milwaukee, WI 53201 U.S.A. FAX (414) 229-6958 | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + ------------------------------ From: Amit Zavery Newsgroups: comp.society.privacy Subject: Electronic Checks Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 15:19:23 -0500 Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Hi, Does anyone know about any banks providing facilities for electronic checks? I remember watching something on CNN which mentioned this. But I did not get to watch the whole show. I am trying to find out about the type of security they use and how good it is. I would also like to know what features they have available. Thanks in advance --amit ------------------------------ From: Mark Malson Subject: Re: Driver Licence Info Organization: Xetron Corporation Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 19:00:55 GMT In article , Jon Luckey wrote: > I heard a rumor that you can trace licence plates from any > state using a service on the internet or compuserve. > > Is this true? You can trace any Florida plate by doing a GO FCA on CompuServe. But first, you have to send a deposit to the Florida DMV in Tallahassee and wait for a user ID in the mail - it doesn't take long. BTW, when I lived in Florida (Melbourne, actually), the group Operation Rescue was severely disparaged in local news reports for tracing abortion customers through their license plates using this service. Not that I endorse their tactics, but this information is a matter of public record. I suppose if one wants to keep this information private, one need not use publicly funded roadways (therefore not register their vehicle). - Mark Malson markm@xetron.com ------------------------------ End of Computer Privacy Digest V3 #069 ******************************