Date: Sat, 24 Apr 93 15:31:29 EST Errors-To: Comp-privacy Error Handler From: Computer Privacy Digest Moderator To: Comp-privacy@PICA.ARMY.MIL Subject: Computer Privacy Digest V2#036 Computer Privacy Digest Sat, 24 Apr 93 Volume 2 : Issue: 036 Today's Topics: Moderator: Dennis G. Rears Re: National ID Card and the end of Privacy Re: Credit card application Re: Credit Card Application SSN on college applications? WorrUK state health service privacy and ID number electronic mail privacy Severe privacy attack? Getting Clipped Reprint Roszak: _The Cult of Information_, Y or N? The Computer Privacy Digest is a forum for discussion on the effect of technology on privacy. The digest is moderated and gatewayed into the USENET newsgroup comp.society.privacy (Moderated). Submissions should be sent to comp-privacy@pica.army.mil and administrative requests to comp-privacy-request@pica.army.mil. Back issues are available via anonymous ftp on ftp.pica.army.mil [129.139.160.133]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Philip Hurley Subject: Re: National ID Card and the end of Privacy In article you write: >I am curious if anyone has any FACTS regarding the 'national medical >ID card'. Is the Clinton administration aware of the horendous >privacy implications this card has? How have they addressed these >issues? If you thought SSN's were bad, wait till you see what this >baby will do! > Please Post All Facts Available, > The Jester >-- > The Jester -PGP VER2 Key on Request >Why all Politicians should be like Ross Perot: >"Hes too short to be seen, to rich to be bribed, and will quit >before he does any real damage"-Jay Leno > I don't have many facts but I can tell you some bill numbers that may be related. In the House, HR940, sponsored by Byrne and HR1640 sponsored by Waxman. In the Senate, S732 and S733 sponsored by Kennedy & Rielgle. These bills contain requirements for federally mandated vaccination of children, registration, tracking & surveillance of children from birth, and equate failure to vaccinate children with child abuse. I cannot validify the wording of these bills and would welcome any clarification. Philip Hurley "It is absurd to say that you are T.A.E.X. especially advancing freedom when you only Computer Technology use free thought to destroy free will." (409) 845-9689 -- Chesterton p-hurley1@tamu.edu I, too, disclaim. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 18:42:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dave Niebuhr, BNL CCD, 516-282-3093" Subject: Re: Credit card application In Computer Privacy Digest V2 #034 Matthew B Cravit writes: >I received a credit card application (some kind of student Visa/Mastercard), >and in looking at the application, I see that they want to know: [... various information deleted - dwn ...] >Should I be wary of providing any of this? Do they have a reasonable right to >my Mastercard and AmEx account numbers and checking balance? I'm not sure but you can bet that they will find out your credit status with them when they do a credit check on you. I look at it this way, If I'm applying for a credit card I might as well tell them up front since they will find out anyway. I'm not sure about the balance but the last application I filled out just requested the name of the bank and my account number (probably to see if I'm a congresscritter who can't balance a checkbook). Dave Dave Niebuhr Internet: niebuhr@bnl.gov / Bitnet: niebuhr@bnl Brookhaven National Laboratory Upton, LI, NY 11973 (516)-282-3093 Senior Technical Specialist: Scientific Computer Facility ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 00:57:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Robinson Reply-To: Paul Robinson Subject: Re: Credit Card Application From: Paul Robinson Organization: Tansin A. Darcos & Company, Silver Spring, MD USA ----- In Privacy Digest 2-034, Matthew B Cravit , (whose initials are coincidentally MC), writes about credit card applications: MC> I received a credit card application (some kind of student MC> Visa/Mastercard), and in looking at the application, I see MC> that they want to know: Very Dangerous. Stay away from this at all costs. Not the bank, but applying for a debit card at all. I've got plastic. I wanted to get one for years, and I did. I also have the large bills caused because all the "pain" of spending real cash vanishes when you use a credit card. When I purchased a second computer, I did so by a combination of new equipment and cannibalizing the disk drive out of my old XT. And I paid cash for it - $500. (The desk in my room has what was a programmer's envy ten years ago; two computers.) This expenditure of real money gave me a few days of sleeping problems, as buyer's remorse set in. $500 is almost two weeks net pay. Everything turned out fine, but there is something about cash that makes you respect it more than the ease of paying in plastic. (I count checks and ATM cards as cash since you have to have "real" assets to cover them.) Three years ago I bought that hard disk for $415. On plastic, when I making 1/2 of what I was making now. Obviously, $415 then is a lot more money for me in earning power than the $500 was back at Christmas when I bought my new computer. But the purchase on plastic didn't give me the kind of fears that having to cough up "real" money did. I have debit plastic; I regret having it. I recommend avoiding non secured cards. Unless you have the fortidude to pay off the balance in full. Secured cards require you put your own money in a savings account and they issue you a credit limit up to that amount. Some even pay interest on the deposit. Since it's your own money, you might not be tempted to go into expensive debt. Also, for those that really need a credit card, because of renting cars or hotel rooms and such, I recommend using instead a T&E card that requires full payment at the end of the month, such as American Express Green or Carte Blanche/Diners' Club. These are probably better cards to start out with since you have to get used to paying them off immediately. But to go back and answer your *direct* questions: MC> that they want to know: MC> My Resident Alien number (I am not a US citizen yet) They want to identify you specifically so that they can find you if you don't pay your bills and they have to report you to credit bureaus or sue you. MC> All sources of income and how much I make per week from each This shows them how much debt you can afford to carry. MC> My checking account NUMBER, bank and BALANCE MC> The account numbers of any other bank accounts I have and their MC> balances This allows them to determine - from your income - what part of what you make that you save. Checking shows how much you keep to pay bills and current expenses. Savings shows how much you put aside for the future. People that spend everything they make and live from paycheck to paycheck are questionable credit risks. That includes me and probably 3/4 of the readers of this newsgroup, :) but.... MC> The account numbers of any credit cards I have and my monthly MC> payments Again, how much debt are you carrying now. I'm surprised it doesn't ask where you live (alone, with others, rooming, mortgage, rent) and how much you spend on rent per month. MC> Social security number Same thing, for tracking purposes. Realize that when you get a credit card from someone, you are allowing them to give you an "unsecured loan" i.e. a promissory note backed by nothing but your signature, i.e. your promise to repay them. Thus it is in their interest to be sure that (1) they do not give you more debt than you are able to pay off at any time (2) that they make sure they know exactly who you are so that they have the ability to come after you if you don't pay up. In short, these are reasonable considering the risk they have to take from fraudulent charges and people who don't pay their debt. (Now the whole issue of excessive debt is another one altogether.) ----- Paul Robinson -- TDARCOS@MCIMAIL.COM ------------------------------ From: "Fidler, Justin" Subject: SSN on college applications? Date: Tue, 20 Apr 93 11:29:00 EDT I'm a junior in high school, and soon I will have to start applying to colleges. Having taken the SAT before, and on checking the box to allow my name/scores/etc to be released publically to colleges, I receive at least 5 pieces of mail daily from colleges. Often what I receive is a simple brochure with a business reply card. On these reply cards, they often ask for quite a few things, notably SSN. My question is this: should I include it, and if not, will it lower my chances with that college? I wonder if a data-entry clerk who receives a card with a blank area may just toss the card. It is more important to me that I have a chance getting into a college than if my SSN is released. It should be noted that SATs are tracked by numerous keywords, the most common being SSN. Thanks for any help, Justin Fidler jrf@b31.nei.nih.gov ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 93 10:53:24 From: James Faircliffe Subject: WorrUK state health service privacy and ID number The NHS is the British National Health Service which (very roughly) gives everyone free health treatment, for all reasonable medical needs, without asking any questions about their income. Practically everyone in Britain has used it and most people use it as virtually their only source of medical treatment. A major reorganisation in this nationalised service is leading to the creation of an 'internal market', whereby the patient's doctor 'buys' hospital treatment from (often) the cheapest hospital (which may be in another health district) rather than from the local hospital. One obvious way of easing the administrative problems of this is to use an efficient computer system. At present, patient records are mostly on paper. Any summary data which is held on computer tends to have a highly restricted circulation. The English 'Cambridge Evening News', on Friday April 16th, had a lead story by Fulton Gillespie about a new computer system for the Cambridge Health District. It said that the system allowed confidential patient information to be passed between health authorities and hospitals. The national Data Protection Registrar, Eric Howe, believes that the system may breach the 1984 Data Protection Act and objects because: 1) A lot of the information held is excessive, 2) A lot of the information was collected unfairly, 3) A lot of the information is stored for longer than was needed, 4) A lot of the information can be used by unauthorised persons. He especially objected because he believed that the system is wrong to store marital status and ethnic origin. He is afraid that the new NHS number to be given to all patients might eventually become a national ID number which would be available to all government departments. We already have an NHS number but it isn't used much. Our National Insurance number is the equivalent of your SSN but is not abused to anything like the same extent. The Cambridge scheme was an offical national government pilot scheme, so the Department of Health was directly involved. The Department heads are studying the report. The British government has, for a Western democracy, a distinctly poor record in respecting individuals' privacy and maintaining open government. The 1984 Data Protection Act, like the your federal Privacy Act 1974, has some uses but is generally ineffective. The Registrar, Eric Howe, does his best to enforce it but has a small staff and budget. . i_userid_4@p1.uclan.ac.uk ------------------------------ From: Erini Doss Subject: electronic mail privacy Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 05:48:31 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana I need to find out any information possible about electronic mail at the workplace. For example, when a person writes for social reasons, does his manager have the right to read it anytime? Is the employees' e-mail considered company property or is it cosidered the employees? Is there anything that the company considers not theirs or is it considered theirs as long as the person is doing it during work hours? What about during lunch breaks? What about super- users? When do companies feel that they have the right to read anyone's mail and who can do it? Please help, if you have any knowledge of cases at compannies or can recommend any info... I'm in a bind research poaper is due in less thatn a week!! But, jplease don't send over any irrelevant material!! e-mail adress is erini@enterprise.ifp.uiuc.edu ------------------------------ From: u92_dwebb@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu Subject: Severe privacy attack? Organization: Stevens Institute Of Technology Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 08:27:37 GMT I'll be graduating in about a month, and my school has "asked" me to fill out some paperwork before I leave. One of the items I'm expected to fill out is a Loan Interview form. Although all my loans were government subsidized, this form does not appear to be federal. It also doesn't appear to be from the school, since the school's name isn't on it, and a number of other features make it look fairly generic. I'm concerned about a number of items on it, and I'd like your advice... Along with the standard name, address, and phone number, they want the following information: - Major - Student ID # - SS# (same as student id, unfortunately) - Drivers License #, state - Date of birth - Employer info - Loan amounts and types - Fraternity affiliations - Credit card companies and numbers !!! - Bank names, account types, and account numbers !!! - Father/mother name/address/phone #/employer - "Two references from home locality other than relatives or students" - "One relative other than parents who will always know your address" Does this sound like a legitimate request for information, or do I have a strong case to refuse filling out this form? (I'll certainly be leaving lots of it incomplete, in any case.) -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Douglas Webb | Yeah, like anyone else could come up | | U92_DWEBB@VAXA.STEVENS-TECH.EDU | with these opinions. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 03:41:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Robinson Reply-To: Paul Robinson Subject: Getting Clipped The Washington Times reported Thursday that the U.S. Government, in "gassing" the Branch Davidian compound at Waco, Texas, used a nerve agent (CS "Tear Gas") on children that is banned by international law for use in warfare. The CS tear agent, or O-chlorobenzalmalononitrite, is a white crystaline powder that causes involuntary closure of eyes, burning of the skin, respiratory problems and vomiting, which anyone who knows how this chemical works would be aware that use in an enclosed area would make leaving the area difficult due to the trauma it would cause. It would have been illegal for the U.S. Government to use this product on Iraqui troops, but apparently it's okay to spray it on 6-year-old children of this country who could not even have gas masks because they are not made in the sizes that fit children, and because this type of tear gas is normally used for crowd control and is designed to be hard to resist with a gas mask. This is the same government that expects us to trust it with the base systems and equipment used to create the cryptographic encryption systems to be used by the public in telephone calls, data transmissions, and people's most sensitive information. This sort of callous treatment of their country's own people (specifically innocent children) shows that no government agency could be trusted with anything of this seriousness. As far as I'm concerned, they can take the Clipper Chip and shove it. A government that would use militarily banned ordnance on it's own citizens in general, and on children in particular, is morally bankrupt and cannot be trusted for anything. ----- Paul Robinson -- TDARCOS@MCIMAIL.COM [Moderator's Note: No comments about the Waco situation. It doesn't belong here. ._dennis ] ------------------------------ From: William Edward Subject: Reprint Roszak: _The Cult of Information_, Y or N? Date: 23 Apr 1993 23:57:02 GMT Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz Friday, April 23, 1993 The University of California Press is considering re-releasing a book on computers, people, and information, which has gone out of print. The book is called _The Cult of Information_; its author is Theodore Roszak. It was originally published in 1986 by Pantheon Press. UC Press doesn't have Internet access, so I've been asked to gather opinion from people on Usenet... Pro or con... Should the book be re-released? The new edition would be in paperback form, and priced in the $10-$12 range. It would contain a new author's preface, addressing issues of the past seven years. U.C. Press is interested in any comments folks may have, and specifically ones on the following issues: What is the potential market? Would the book be appropriate for classroom use in any kinds of college courses? General impressions of the quality, accuracy, and insightfulness, or lack of those characteristics, present in the book. How could the book be publicized so as to best reach those who would be interested in having a copy? Obviously, these questions are more easily answered if you've read or know of the book. I've included the table of contents and some of the back and front matter, to appease everyone else's curiousity. Please respond by mail to woody@zocalo.com, rather than by follow-up here. Thank you. -Bill Woodcock ________________________________________________________________________________ bill woodcock woody@zocalo.com woody@applelink.apple.com woody@ucscb.ucsc.edu Other books by Theodore Roszak: _Person/Planet_ _Unfinished Animal_ _Where the Wasteland Ends_ _The Making of a Counter Culture_ _The Dissenting Academy_ _Masculine/Feminine_ _Sources_ _Dreamwatcher_ _Bugs_ _Pontifex_ About the Author: Theodore Roszak, acclaimed author of _The Making of a Counter Culture_, has twice been nominated for a National Book Award. He is professor of history and chairman of general studies at California State University, Hayward. Table of Contents: Introduction "Information Please" Information old-style Enter UNIVAC Cybernetics and the secret of life The biocomputer The Data Merchants High tech and the conservative opportunists Sunbelt politics and the warfare state Megahype Hackers and hucksters Silicon and natural selection Technophilia The Hidden Curriculum The chimera of computer literacy A solution in search of problems The computerized campus Power and dependency A private universe The Program Within the Program The case of Logo Of Ideas and Data Ideas come first The master ideas Experience, memory, insight The empiricist gambit No ideas, no information Computers and Pure Reason The light in Plato's cave The old mathematical magic The seductions of software An alien intelligence The flight from reality The fifth generation... and beyond The Computer and the Counterculture Big Blue and the guerrilla hackers An electronic populism The heroic age of the microcomputer Reversionaries and technophiles Domes, data, and dope Decline and fall The Politics of Information Nothing but the facts Data glut Issues before information Online communities: the promise of networking The public library: the missing link of the information age In The Wrong Hands The foundations of information technology The surveillance machine The polling machine The war machine _Machine `a gouverner_ At the limits of sanity: the psychotic machine Descartes's Angel Reflections on the true art of thinking Notes Index ------------------------------ End of Computer Privacy Digest V2 #036 ******************************