Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 16:30:53 EST Errors-To: Comp-privacy Error Handler From: Computer Privacy Digest Moderator To: Comp-privacy@PICA.ARMY.MIL Subject: Computer Privacy Digest V2#032 Computer Privacy Digest Mon, 12 Apr 93 Volume 2 : Issue: 032 Today's Topics: Moderator: Dennis G. Rears Re: Information privacy and applying for an apartment Re: Information privacy and applying for an apartment Re: What can "they" do with my SSN? Re: Controlled Items Re: Controlled Items ssn as authenticator Re: Availability of Records Re: Availability of Records Re: Computer Privacy Digest V2#030 Re: [Christina Cole: Email Privacy] The Computer Privacy Digest is a forum for discussion on the effect of technology on privacy. The digest is moderated and gatewayed into the USENET newsgroup comp.society.privacy (Moderated). Submissions should be sent to comp-privacy@pica.army.mil and administrative requests to comp-privacy-request@pica.army.mil. Back issues are available via anonymous ftp on ftp.pica.army.mil [129.139.160.133]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Apr 93 16:57:13 -0700 From: "Glenn S. Tenney" Subject: Re: Information privacy and applying for an apartment Dave Gomberg said that when he rented an apartment he needed an SSN to get a credit check. Sorry, Dave, they may have TOLD you they needed it, but none of the three major credit bureaus need it nor do they charge extra if you don't have it -- this from both experience and talking with senior VP's of those companies. They can, and do type in the person's name and address and pull reports all the time. If there is no hit that way, or there is more than one hit, then something like age/date-of-birth can be used to pull up the right one -- or you can decline credit for lack of a credit report. It may be that the intermediary company (not the bureau itself) refused to do a search without the ssn, or the person there just thought they had to have it... --- Glenn Tenney tenney@netcom.com Amateur radio: AA6ER Voice: (415) 574-3420 Fax: (415) 574-0546 ------------------------------ From: bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (Bob Sherman) Subject: Re: Information privacy and applying for an apartment Date: 11 Apr 1993 03:52:36 -0400 In Brinton Cooper writes: >I should know this, but I don't: Is the SSN required for obtaining >reports from credit reporting bureaus? >_Brint It certainly helps if you have it, and there are many ways to find it out if you don't know it, but need it, including from the credit bureaus. If you know a persons name and address, most of the time you can locate their SSN through public records. If you know their name and DOB you can also sometimes locate their SSN. The information web has become so widespread now, it is hard to escape it.. -- bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu | | MCI MAIL:BSHERMAN an764@cleveland.freenet.edu | | ------------------------------ From: chris.carpenter@loebbs.com (Chris Carpenter) Subject: Re: What can "they" do with my SSN? Date: 8 Apr 93 20:29:00 GMT Organization: The LAND OF ENCHANTMENT BBS! Albuquerque, NM 505 857-0836 TO: All David Hoffman asked: >.After reading many articles here about how not to give your SSN away, >.it occurs to me that I don't know WHY I shouldn't give it away. What >.can some third party do with my SSN that I wouldn't like? I think >.every credit card company in the world probably knows mine by now. Where I work or what I do doesn't matter. If I have sufficient knowledge of various agencies operations I can destroy your credit, give you a legal/traffic record (Issue a Warrant for your arrest), obtain/use your credit card #'s, assume your identify when conducting paper business with uncle sam, utilize your Social Security Benefits and much much more... whatever my imagination and ability enables. -Chris (chris.carpenter@loebbs.com) --- * OLX V3.0 * LOE BBS - Where we operate at a 90. angle to reality ------------------------------ From: news@cbnewsh.att.com Date: Fri, 9 Apr 93 02:27:18 GMT Subject: Re: Controlled Items Organization: Sorcerer's Apprentice Cleaning Services In article Richard Pierson writes: Just noticed something today while filling up the ole commuter car today, a sign was posted on the diesel pump of the selfserv I use in PA. "All customers purchasing diesel fuel MUST fill out a 'receipt' BEFORE fuel will be dispensed". .... Is diesel now a controlled item ? Just a guess -- at most self-serve gas stations I've been to, you have to pay before pumping the gas, to reduce the probability that you fill up your car and leave without paying. Most diesel use is business - there are a few diesel Rabbits or Oldsmobiles around, but it's mostly trucks - and businesses almost always want receipts, and often have accounts at gas companies they deal with a lot. Having *you* fill out the receipt is probably their way of handling the pay-before-use and the business paperwork at the same time, with minimal labor on their part. Of course, here in New Jersey, we're not allowed to pump our own gas... the small retailers have the legislature cooperating with them, and any time they get enough pressure to think about changing it, people make lots of speeches about safety and little old ladies write letters to the Star-Ledger about how they'd have to pay lots more money to have their gas pumped for them and how can these cruel people treat their grandmas like that ... so we keep paying to get our gas pumped. -- # Pray for peace; Bill # Bill Stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com AT&T Bell Labs 4M312 Holmdel NJ # Disclaimer available by finger (if you can get through our firewall :-) ------------------------------ From: Richard Pierson Subject: Re: Controlled Items Organization: Bellcore Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 12:14:49 GMT In article , Richard Pierson writes: |> Just noticed something today while filling up the ole |> commuter car today, a sign was posted on the diesel |> pump of the selfserv I use in PA. |> |> "All customers purchasing diesel fuel MUST fill out |> a 'receipt' BEFORE fuel will be dispensed". |> |> I went inside and asked about this "receipt" and was |> shown a form, from the Govt, that had Name,address,lic#, |> Plate#, gallons, price, phone#. The attendent had no |> idea what it was for but said she had to fill it out |> using the purchasers license for info. Is this a federal |> or state thing, the receipt had no ID as to who it was |> from and I looked for a form number all over it. This |> receipt is required whether cash or card is used. She |> said that she thinks the owners put it in with the state |> tax money they submit monthly for fuel taxes. This form |> also gets validated on a printer at time of purchase. |> |> Is diesel now a controlled item ? |> |> -- Found out from the owner of the service station that the diesel record form is from the federal gov. It is make sure that the taxes are payed on all diesel fuel sold. It is also supposed to be a method to keep the sales points from selling home heating oil as diesel fuel and thus avoid paying the tax. -- ########################################################## There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES and TARGETS !!! #1/XS1100LH DoD #956 #2 Next raise Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063 Internet: fist@iscp.bellcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist #include My opinions are my own!!! I Don't shop in malls, I BUY my jeans, jackets and ammo in the same store. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 93 05:51:56 PDT From: "David P. Reed" Subject: ssn as authenticator A number of recent messages address the issue of why ssn's are needed for various transactions in society. Underlying this is an apparent new concern about misuse of the ssn. Originally the concern was unreasonable linking of personal records in unrelated data bases (such as credit bureaus and criminal/medical records bureaus). The privacy issue was the familiar "big brother" one -- the creation of an all-knowing agency that sees all sides of us, rather than just the side relevant to a mutual purpose. The new issue seems to be that some agencies use ssn as some kind of digital signature or authenticator to verify identity of an otherwise anonymous purported person. I find it hard to believe that a court would support a vendor who tried to claim that a valid contract existed because they had received a correct SSN from a deliberate imposter as their only proof of identity. On the other hand, stranger things have happened. Every time I get money from someone, I MUST provide my SSN (so they can file a 1099 form with the IRS, except in certain cases where I am allowed through "backup withholding" to pay for anonymity). There is a deep conflict between this use, which does not provide "proof" of identity, and use as an authenticator. Presumably anyone who uses a SSN as an authenticator of identity is assuming a serious risk, and should be responsive to that point. At the same time, this particular risk of ssn use to privacy (being "forced" to divulge one's signature) would seem to be minor compared to the "big brother" one of allowing data to be linked. ------------------------------ From: Executive Protection Assoc Subject: Re: Availability of Records Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1993 16:41:46 GMT It all depends on the state, in California for instance you cannot release DMV information without paying a permit fee, application, etc. Most of the other things you mentioned are public record, and most states are automated so that all I have to do is log onto a service, put in my request and have results back within minutes to 1-2 days. There is very little that is actually "private" information anymore, I can even get your spending habits on CD rom if I want to cross reference. It is scary how little privacy we really have left !! Anyone with the fee for service activation, and a PC can access any/all of these records, and If I can't get the info in one state, I go out of state to another service who will happily supply it (legally) from that state. Hope this information wakes a few people up !!! Rasch@dockmaster.ncsc.mil wrote: : I am interested in learning whether anybody has done some comprehensive : research on whether journalists (or anyone else) have lawful access to : the following in all 50 states (or federally): : : (1) Police criminal history records (rap sheets) which are printed out : by name of accused : : (2) Police blotter information -- records of arrest, conviction, : relelease, etc. : : (3) Arrest reports and backup documents : : (4) Department of Motor Vehicle records : : (5) Police intelligence files : : In essence, my question is this -- if the police provide any or all of : this information to a reporter doing a story, have either or biootht of : them committed a crime? : ------------------------------ From: bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (Bob Sherman) Subject: Re: Availability of Records Date: 11 Apr 1993 03:45:29 -0400 In Rasch@dockmaster.ncsc.mil writes: >I am interested in learning whether anybody has done some comprehensive >research on whether journalists (or anyone else) have lawful access to >the following in all 50 states (or federally): >(1) Police criminal history records (rap sheets) which are printed out >by name of accused yes, in many, but not all states. yes in most counties in the country, yes at the federal level. most require dob or ssn in addition to the accused name. >(2) Police blotter information -- records of arrest, conviction, >relelease, etc. yes on blotter information, see above for arrest records >(3) Arrest reports and backup documents >(4) Department of Motor Vehicle records yes in almost every state. >(5) Police intelligence files depends on many factors, such as active or inactive cases, freedom of information laws etc.. >In essence, my question is this -- if the police provide any or all of >this information to a reporter doing a story, have either or biot of >them committed a crime? No based on above comments... There is no crime in providing public documents to the public. Unless the state involved has deemed the particular record(s) as not public. However most of the above are considered public in most areas. There are also many other types of records also considered public, including such things as court records (arrests, any documents introduced during hearings, trials etc, convictions, releases etc.), real estate records, voter records, and much, much more. -- bsherman@mthvax.cs.miami.edu | | MCI MAIL:BSHERMAN an764@cleveland.freenet.edu | | ------------------------------ From: sean@sdg.dra.com Subject: Re: Computer Privacy Digest V2#030 Date: 9 Apr 93 23:50:12 CST Organization: Data Research Associates, St. Louis MO In article , Dave Gomberg writes: > In reply to Hans Lachman and why a SSN is needed to rent an apartment, > he should know that an SSN saves about $30 in getting a credit check > (the $30 is for getting his SSN). Wouldn't he think it abusive if he > didn't give his number, and then was charged an extra $30 and they had > it anyway?? And if they can't find it, they won't get a credit check > and he won't get the apt. Refusing to give it out is just not > reasonable IN THIS CASE. Any reputable credit bureau can run a credit report without a SSN. Unless a landlord is getting credit reports on the side, the lack of a SSN should be of very little hinderance. The problem dealing with non-professional credit managers, such as small landlords, is they often know as little about how the credit reporting bureaus work as the typical consumer. Remember the orginal complaint was the landlord refused to even consider an application without a SSN, not there was a problem with the applicant's credit history. While a landlord could refuse to rent to someone who left "What is your middle initial?" blank on the rental application, obviously not all the information on the application is of equal necessity to make a decision. Whether the landlord is making a rational decision not consider any application under any condition without a SSN is debatable. Of course landlords would like to know as much as possible about perspective tenants. What was your Grade Point Average in college? Do you own a noisy car? Have you been arrested, or convicted? Do you have any psychological disorders? But what information does a reasonable landlord need to make a rational decision? Is the Social Security Number a piece of information so vital that it is impossible for the landlord to make a decision without it? Or is the SSN just one of several pieces a data that would be nice for the landlord to know but not absolutely neccessary to make a decision? The landlord could evaluate the application without the SSN, including obtaining a credit report (assuming the landlord has an official account with a credit bureau), and then decide whether to rent to the person. If it turns out the landlord doesn't find a satisfactory credit history (either because of ambigious information because of the lack of a SSN, or because the SSN isn't valid) the landlord can then decide not to rent to the person. If it turns out the person does have a credit history that is satisfactory to the landlord (even if it doesn't have a SSN, yes even people without SSN's have credit histories), or because of other information (recomendation of a previous landlord) the landlord can then decide to rent to the person. But a typical landlord can't tell a valid SSN, from a fake one without paying for a credit report. Why a landlord is willing to evaluate applications that might have a fake 9-digit number in the SSN space, but isn't willing to evaluate ANY application that leaves the SSN space blank has very little to do with his need. But with his misunderstanding of how the number is used. Most major creditors, such as banks, credit cards, utility, etc will have procedures in place for handling consumers without SSNs. But dealing with a small landlord is pretty much beyond hope. They just don't have the credit management background, so you'll never reach a common understanding. An applicant should become suspicous if the creditor claims they can't obtain a credit history without a SSN. This may indicate the creditor is obtaining the credit reports through illicit means. By law the applicant has the right to know which credit bureaus supplied information to the creditor, and the creditor must tell the applicant if the applicant asks. [Moderator's Note: Then of course you have the big apartment complexes that take the "Take it or leave it approach". They want a nonrefundable charge for credit reports. They make the lease so tilted in their favour and they get away with it because you need a place to live. I was astonished when I moved to New Jersey from Florida at the nonflexibility of landlords in NJ. ._dennis ] -- Sean Donelan, Data Research Associates, Inc, St. Louis, MO Domain: sean@sdg.dra.com, Voice: (Work) +1 314-432-1100 ------------------------------ From: Paul Hardwick Subject: Re: [Christina Cole: Email Privacy] Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1993 04:26:05 GMT In Brinton Cooper writes: > Christina Cole seeks information from/about >employees whose >"... private email messages had been intercepted by their >supervisors..." >and what to do if/when this occurs. >Actually, the thing to do is not to send "private" e-mail on a computer >owned by someone else and provided solely so that the employee can >do the employer's (i.e., owner's) work more efficiently. Those of us >who insist on the right to privacy of e-mail should sign up with >services such as CompuServe. You may not be physically more secure, but >you have a clear expectation to privacy when the service is being >provided for YOUR convenience. >_Brint I am not sure if you actually have this clear expectation of privacy. two of the most recent cases that have made headlines were based on E-Mail taken from commercial services. 1-At Borland the E-mail being used in a theft of information case invloves many E-Mail letters that were taken from MCI. The trick in this case is that Borland paid for the account and therefore felt that THEY OWNED the contents of that E-Mail box. 2-A second case was a while back at Epson( I think). A person in the department that ran the E-mail was recording/browsing the messages that went by into/out of peoples accounts. This included BOTH internal E-Mail systems and E-Mail that was obtained over the gateway from MCI. I am not sure who excatly paid for these accounts on MCI but I do not belive that EPSON paid for all of them. It is safer to expect NO PRIVACY AT ALL on E-Mail unless something EXPLICITLY guarentees it. That can be law on public carriers such as CI$ or MCI. or explicit statements on used by the owners/maintainers on private/inhouse systems. --Paul -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Paul Hardwick | Technical Consulting | InterNet: hardwick@panix.com | | P.O. Box 1482 | for MVS (SP/XA/ESA) | Voice: (212) 535-0998 | | NY, NY 10274 | and 3rd party addons | Fax: (212) Pending | ------------------------------ End of Computer Privacy Digest V2 #032 ******************************