Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 16:15:26 EST Errors-To: Comp-privacy Error Handler From: Computer Privacy Digest Moderator To: Comp-privacy@PICA.ARMY.MIL Subject: Computer Privacy Digest V2#001 Computer Privacy Digest Mon, 04 Jan 93 Volume 2 : Issue: 001 Today's Topics: Moderator: Dennis G. Rears Re: Radar Detector Prohib Re: Radar Detector Prohib Re: Zip+4 Problems? Zip+4 Problems? Zip+4 Problems? Re: Zip+4 Problems? Re: Zip+4 Problems? Re: Zip+4 Problems? Re: Zip+4 Problems? Re: SSN and new baby The Computer Privacy Digest is a forum for discussion on the effect of technology on privacy. The digest is moderated and gatewayed into the USENET newsgroup comp.society.privacy (Moderated). Submissions should be sent to comp-privacy@pica.army.mil and administrative requests to comp-privacy-request@pica.army.mil. Back issues are available via anonymous ftp on ftp.pica.army.mil [129.139.160.133]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paul Olson Subject: Re: Radar Detector Prohib Organization: Mission Operations and Data Systems Date: 30 Dec 1992 20:43 EST In article , robert.heuman@rose.com (robert heuman) writes... > >Interesting discussion, but obviously limited to the US. In Canada >the Federal Government, in its infinite wisdom, simply made them >illegal. No question of constitutional rights, or court challenge... >just plain made them illegal... > Yea, interesting considering that my Beltronics detector is manufactured in Mississauga, Ontario. >Obviously the US needs to have its constitution changed, to make it >possible for the Executive Branch to simply follow the same course, >for the good of ALL drivers. After all, speed kills. Congress would ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Geeze, and after all these years of people bashing the U.S. for "exporting death", it's finally discovered that Canada has unleased it's industry of death on the U.S. Guess you guys finally got fed up with us south of the border folk affecting the Labatt's taste test polls! ;-) (This paragraph mumbled because my tounge is in my cheek. I grew up in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, about as Canada as folk in the U.S. become. I even pronouce "about" the way Peter Jennings does!) > >Bob >--- > RoseReader 1.70 P001886: This Canadian has an Opinion...His Own! > RM 2.00 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285 __ Paul J. Olson - VAX Systems Manager & Resident Amiga Addict C= /// Voice - 301/286-4246, 301725-5501 __ /// DECnet- DSTL86::OLSON \\\/// Internet - olson@dstl86.gsfc.nasa.gov \XX/ Disclaimer: Statements in my messages are wholely my own. AMIGA "[the universe originated] as a quantum fluctuation of absolutely nothing." - Guth & Steinhardt ------------------------------ Posted-Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:08:08 GMT From: "Bryan D. Boyle" Subject: Re: Radar Detector Prohib Reply-To: "Bryan D. Boyle" Organization: Exxon Research & Engineering Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:08:08 GMT In article , robert.heuman@rose.com (robert heuman) writes: >Interesting discussion, but obviously limited to the US. In Canada >the Federal Government, in its infinite wisdom, simply made them >illegal. No question of constitutional rights, or court challenge... >just plain made them illegal... > >Obviously the US needs to have its constitution changed, to make it >possible for the Executive Branch to simply follow the same course, >for the good of ALL drivers. After all, speed kills. Congress would >love it, wouldn't they? Look at all the porkbarreling eliminated this >way. US Taxpayers might actually SAVE money, too. Interesting point-hope we (south of your border...) don't do the same. Factoid: since 1973, when speed limit was lowered to 55 from 60, highway death rate in absolute numbers has not changed significantly. It seems to be remaining constant at 50K persons per year. Speed doesn't kill, loose nuts and drunk drivers kill. It is absolutely insane that 6-lane, smooth, flat interstates have a limit of 55 MPH. But down here, it is not a speed issue, but a monetary issue. In NJ, 42% of the tickets written for speeding are for the range of 56-65MPH. Raising the limit to 60 would eliminate a lot of these, thus depriving the slimepuppies in government of their revenue. Second point: some of us down here like to think that we can manage our lives quite nicely, thank you, without the heavy handed bureaucratic intervention of the government mongrel. With full awareness of our social contract, and need to constantly recognize our responsibilities to our fellow citizens. We don't need some government dweeb lecturing us or shaking a pointer or tsk-tsking what we do. (but, then, I am somewhat of an anarchist....) ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Zip+4 Problems? Organization: I.E.C.C. Date: 30 Dec 92 23:56:35 EST (Wed) From: "John R. Levine" > I'm a big fan of using my Zip+4 on my mail, does giving out this > "extra" +4 of zip code give out any more info about yourself > other than "where to send the mail"? No. The ZIP+4 is based solely on the address. You can buy a set of thick books from the post office that give the address to zip+4 mapping for the entire country. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us, {spdcc|ima|world}!iecc!johnl ------------------------------ From: Carl Oppedahl Subject: Zip+4 Problems? Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 05:13:34 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC > I'm a big fan of using my Zip+4 on my mail, does giving out this > "extra" +4 of zip code give out any more info about yourself > other than "where to send the mail"? Have you ever looked in a Zip+4 directory? That's where you would find the answer. In an apartment building with, say, 200 units it will typically narrow things down to 12 or so apartment unit mailboxes. So ... if you are the type who leaves out the apartment number from your address on purpose, the Zip+4 might give some of that back to the reader of your address.. I recall learning where Dustin Hoffman lived here in New York because it happens he got enough mail he had his own Zip+4 assigned, and there in the nine-digit Zip code directory for New York was his listing in some apartment building. So, even though he had an unlisted telephone number and tried to keep his address out of general public knowledge, there it was for all to see in a directory anybody can buy for $12. (He has since moved.) -- Carl Oppedahl AA2KW (intellectual property lawyer) 30 Rockefeller Plaza New York, NY 10112-0228 voice 212-408-2578 fax 212-765-2519 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 11:49:13 -0500 From: "Glenn R. Stone" Subject: Zip+4 Problems? Reply-To: glenns@eas.gatech.edu In the referenced article, dewey@ibminet.awdpa.ibm.com (Dewey Coffman) writes: > I'm a big fan of using my Zip+4 on my mail, does giving out this > "extra" +4 of zip code give out any more info about yourself > other than "where to send the mail"? In some instances, especially a P.O. box, it will uniquely identify the address in and of itself.... it's designed to at least get the carrier within a couple blocks at most of the destination, even on a rural route. I imagine that any database that would show buying habits would give fairly good neighborhood demographics given plus-4 codes in addition to the usual five (which can and often do define a fairly large area). On the other hand, instead of putting name and address for my return address on bills, etc., I simply put my plus-four zip in the upper left hand corner and leave the other lines blank.... fie on these student loan companies that want you to put everything but your mother's maiden name (they have a space for not only your account number, which is based on SSN, but your bloody PHONE NUMBER) in the return address space... So, no, putting plus-four on mail that's already got a full address doesn't help the database goops (except for stats purposes), and IMHO, it's a good way to *preserve* privacy with respect to the casual snooper-of-mail; even if it's not perfectly secure, it makes it considerably more difficult for them to figure out where you are.... or even who, if the integrity of the envelope isn't breached. Glenn R. Stone (glenns@eas.gatech.edu) Anyone ever notice that the Secret Service's initials are SS? ------------------------------ From: Eric Hunt Subject: Re: Zip+4 Problems? Date: 31 Dec 92 14:13:04 GMT Organization: Birmingham-Southern College In article , ibmpa!vpdbox.austin.ibm.com!dewey@ibminet.awdpa.ibm.com (Dewey Coffman) writes: > I'm a big fan of using my Zip+4 on my mail, does giving out this > "extra" +4 of zip code give out any more info about yourself I looked my ZIP+4 up in the massive tome the USPS publishes. All I found is that only two addresses on the planet have this ZIP+4. So, someone knowing my Zip+4 alone could conceivably look it up and come pay me a visit. -- Eric Hunt | bsc835!ehunt@uunet.uu.net (preferred) Birmingham-Southern College | eric.hunt@the-matrix.com Birmingham, Alabama 35254 | ^--- Nothing longer than 100 lines ------------------------------ From: John Keating Subject: Re: Zip+4 Problems? Date: 31 Dec 92 19:08:37 GMT Organization: Cray Communications, Inc. In article , ibmpa!vpdbox.austin.ibm.com!dewey@ibminet.awdpa.ibm.com (Dewey Coffman) writes: > I'm a big fan of using my Zip+4 on my mail, does giving out this > "extra" +4 of zip code give out any more info about yourself > other than "where to send the mail"? I don't think that it gives too much information, other than a closer approximation as to your residence. For example, my street has two +4 zips, 8420 and 8421. The even numbered zips are for those whose house number is even (presumably everyone on one side of the street has even addressed, and the other odd) and the odd zips are for those whose house number is odd. A local post office should have a listing of +4 zips, and what they mean. (I believe that some +4 zips reference post office boxes). John Keating -- John William Keating, III /----------------------------------------- -+=< Cray Communications, Inc. >=+- | If you do something stupid after reading formerly: Dowty Communications Inc. | this message, it is your own fault, not keating%casemo@mimsy.cs.umd.edu | mine nor the company I work for. -me- ------------------------------ From: Ed Ravin Subject: Re: Zip+4 Problems? Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 21:19:04 GMT Organization: Not Just Another Pretty Face In article Dewey Coffman writes: > I'm a big fan of using my Zip+4 on my mail, does giving out this > "extra" +4 of zip code give out any more info about yourself > other than "where to send the mail"? Of course it does. First of all, remember that your ZIP code already tells a lot about you -- there are marketing databases all over the country that have set up criteria like "Dinks with Dough" or "Snowbird City" to describe the people they presume are living in various ZIP codes. Now, add to that the precision of ZIP+4. At the very least, ZIP+4 codes are unique to a single block. In denser areas, they may be unique to a single apartment building or set of floors (or even a section of mailboxes) in a building. If the marketing database folks have got their act together, I'm sure this information will start to become useful to them. The only bright spot on this stuff is that the Post Office reserves the right to change the +4 portion of a ZIP+4 code. As a matter of fact, anyone who sends mail at the discounted rate with the ZIP+4 is supposed to check the ZIP+4 codes every six months or so against the Post Office's master database. You can buy it on CD-ROM, 9-track tape, and even on floppies or paper directories for selected areas. I still get mail with all three ZIP+4 codes that have been assigned to my apartment building over the past few years. As you may have guessed already, because of these databases, it doesn't matter a whole lot whether you supply your ZIP+4 to someone who wants it-- they can always look it up themselves. The databases software allows you to supply a street address and city name or ZIP code and it spits out the corrected street name (standardized spellings, etc) and the ZIP+4. So the answer to your question is no, giving out the ZIP+4 doesn't give out any more info about yourself that they couldn't get anyway. And if they are going to send you any bulk mailings, they will not only get your ZIP+4 anyway, they'll probably chuck the one you give them if the Post Office's databases have a different one. Yes, the ZIP+4 will make targeting much easier for bulk mailers, direct marketers, and especially political groups that mail to specific gerrymandered election districts, which often have no correspondence to ZIP code boundaries. -- Ed Ravin | I like to think (it has to be!) of a cybernetic ecology eravin@panix.com | where we are free of our labors and joined back to nature philabs!trintex!elr | returned to our mammal brothers and sisters, +1 914 993 4737 | and all watched over by machines of loving grace ------------------------------ From: Dick Grady Subject: Re: Zip+4 Problems? Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 06:30:25 GMT In article Dewey Coffman writes: > > > I'm a big fan of using my Zip+4 on my mail, does giving out this > "extra" +4 of zip code give out any more info about yourself > other than "where to send the mail"? No. In fact, it usually is a little less specific than your street address. For example, on my street, there are about 10 houses per "+4" code. -- Dick Grady Salem, NH, USA grady@world.std.com So many newsgroups, so little time! ------------------------------ Subject: Re: SSN and new baby Organization: I.E.C.C. Date: 31 Dec 92 00:04:50 EST (Thu) From: "John R. Levine" >What experience have people in this group had in keeping the SSN of a newborn >private? I have heard that some hospitals insist on submitting the paperwork >to the Social Security Administration to obtain the number. Although I haven't yet dealt with a newborn baby, I find that about half of the dealings I have with any hospital involve telling them that I have no interest in doing yet another stupid thing that is their "standard policy." We have a little dance we do whenever I go in in which I tell them that I don't know my SSN, I don't care what my SSN is, that none of the many pieces of paper in my wallet have my SSN (sometimes they want to look, but they usually give up after the driver's license), and they have absolutely no use for the damned thing since neither they nor my insurance company use it to identify me. Getting an SSN for a child involves the parent filling out and signing a form and sending it to the SSA. What's the hospital going to do if you refuse to fill it out, keep the baby? Remember, you're the customer. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us, {spdcc|ima|world}!iecc!johnl ------------------------------ End of Computer Privacy Digest V2 #001 ******************************